The Atlantic - Latest Comments in All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Mon, 18 May 2009 18:30:57 -0000

It seems to me though that we need to at least attempt a clear distinction between the friendly ribbing between different factions, which always goes on in any community and the more divisive prejudices that often get lumped in.

Fair enough. I don't mean to brush it aside.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

banhmi — Mon, 18 May 2009 10:18:52 -0000

I'm sure you being in tongue-in-cheek, and likewise, I honestly think we Southeast Asians were allowed in [mind you, as long as we could make it to a refugee camp] out of the United States' guilt for losing the Vietnam War.

I guess all I have to say about this topic is this: how ridiculous is the thought that Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders could possibly be painted with the same broad brush? We are talking about a population that encompasses fourth and fifth generation Japanese and Chinese Americans to first generation Burmese to the Tongan families of Southern Cal.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

banhmi — Mon, 18 May 2009 10:13:19 -0000

I'm glad you mentioned this. I would roll out some stats but I don't have the time. I guess folks could do some reading on the Angry Asian Man blog?

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Alesis — Sun, 17 May 2009 16:18:01 -0000

True, it appears I overlooked some comments.

I suppose I was focused on what struck me as the complacency of some of the comments though of course I could simply be off base here.

It seems to me though that we need to at least attempt a clear distinction between the friendly ribbing between different factions, which always goes on in any community and the more divisive prejudices that often get lumped in.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

R.oB. — Sun, 17 May 2009 09:08:38 -0000

Oh, one other thing. In NY, I never thought twice about the n-bomb being dropped by a spanish cat mostly because I saw them as "us." In fact the lines were often blurred. I remember one funny ass cat who would be "That nigga...." this and " That nigga..." that about Boriquas AND black folk with no hesitation. Now, if he called himself a brother THAT would have felt weird.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

R.oB. — Sun, 17 May 2009 09:00:59 -0000

(Just skimmed the comments so forgive my redundancy.) Straight co-sign this one.

There is also the nationalist effect across race. I was born and spent my childhood in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. I never met an black person not decended from immigrants from the West Indies. My father is Trini and mother is Vincie. I used to hear smack talk about Jamaicans, Haitians, etc., but never seemed to stop the personal one-on-one friendships.

Even more complex is the fact that my Mom can pass for white with her straight black hair, and she would list herself as black on employment forms. Funny (or not) anecdote: a black woman once caught that and told her to mark white so that she could get a better shot at jobs, etc.

So keep those eyes-rollin'.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Sam — Fri, 15 May 2009 18:29:54 -0000

You know, on second thought, my last two posts were lazy. Here's the thing. Yes, many Americans lump Latinos in a way that makes no sense. But I don't hear a lot of them talking about "black versus brown" in a general sense. I heard, during the election, that Latinos/Hispanics wouldn't vote for a black man. And like you've pointed out, that's stupid talk. But to me that's different than "black v. brown," and my thinking is that it conjures up a different meaning out West. Like I said, that makes me think of race riots in LA. If you're hearing something else about "black versus brown," but if so, it's helpful to have a link. At the same time, this is mucha do about nothing. Semantics, and maybe semantics in a way that doesn't matter. I think I get the point.

I think your point about Dominicans and Puerto Ricans talking about blackness has a lot to do with where they live, but it also has to do with African ancestry. It's the one drop rule, no matter where you're from. They're all black in the eyes of those who don't care to distinguish. And so in that sense it's not surprising that they, unlike Mexicans and Central Americans, tend to quickly begin identifying as black once they immigrate. It's not just that they've lived around African-Americans for so long. It's that they are. Even, in the case of your son's coach, if they don't appear so.

I see that The Mind Frame started a thread on that topic below.

Getting back to brown...it makes me think of August 29, 1970. Or "Lighter Shade of Brown," from back in the day. Or the Brown Berets.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Sam — Fri, 15 May 2009 17:39:14 -0000

Of course. Who said a reader's comments had to be original? I just wanted a direct shout. Black v. brown makes me think of Mexican pride rallies as well as race riots in LA. I see from the thread all the other things people think of.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

liveabovemediocrity — Fri, 15 May 2009 16:36:16 -0000

I'm a young Dominican writer (both parents Dominican) who is of African descent. I've lived in Wash Heights all my life and my moms side if European descent and Dad African. Trust, even I have identity issues to this day on this whole subject.

www.liveabovemediocrity.com

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:47:38 -0000

I don't think you are. It's actually all through this thread. See Dave's point about PR vs. Dominican, or the Hatian vs. Dominican comments, or Katie's comments about how race plays out in Puerto Rico.

As for the costs, people are human, and humans are prejudice and murderous. We kill each over differing interpretations of rocks. I'm not sure why it'd be any different when it comes to ethnicity and race.

If you scroll through the comments, I think you see a pretty complete discussions. Some of it's cool. Some of it, not so much.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

kal2020 — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:28:56 -0000

It's a simple way of describing something rather complex. "Not black" opens up a whole can of worms, or rather terms: pardo, mulatta, quase branco, cafusa, caboclo. I also think the lack of defensiveness or bitterness in self-identifying as black may have to do with the black consciousness movement in Brazil. The line between pardo and preto and everything in between is generously drawn, I think, and every Brazilian you talk to will have a different idea of where that line is.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Juba — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:23:14 -0000

Last place I ever thought I would read an amazing essay on racism in the Spanish Caribbean was the NY Post:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02152007/tempo/black_pride_tempo_tego_calderon.htm

Excerpt:

Just this morning, I was listening to radio host Luisito Vigeroux talking about a movie project that I am working on which co-stars Mayra Santos Febres and he was saying, "Her? She's starring in it?"

Questioning her Black beauty.

I remember, too, when Celia Cruz died, a newscaster, thinking she was being smart, said Celia Cruz wasn't black, she was Cuban. She was pretty even though she's black.

As if there is something wrong with being black, like the two things can't exist simultaneously and be a majestic thing. There is ignorance and stupidity in Puerto Rico and Latin America when it comes to blackness.

In Puerto Rico, Spike Lee's "Malcolm X" was only shown in one theater and unlike all the other movies shown here, there were no subtitles. It's as if they don't want the masses to learn.

But it's not just here - in Puerto Rico - where I experience racism. When I lived in Miami, I was often treated like a second class Boricua. I felt like I was in the middle - Latino kids did not embrace me and African American kids were confused because here I was a black boy who spoke Spanish. But after a while, I felt more embraced by black Americans - as a brother who happens to speak Spanish - than other Latino kids did.

Because I am well known, sometimes I forget the racist ways of the world. But then I travel to places where no one knows Tego Calderón I am reminded.

For instance, when I travel first class, the stewardess will say, "Sir, this is first class," and ask to see ticket. I take my time, put my bags in the overhead, sit, and gingerly give them my ticket, smiling at them. I try not to get stressed anymore, let them stress themselves.

And the thing is that many white Puerto Ricans and Latinos don't get it. They are immune to the subtle ways in which we are demeaned, disrespected. They have white privilege. And I've heard it said that we are on the defensive about race.

Tego Calderon was probably my fav. reggaeton rapper before this, but he cemented that rank after it.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

farmgirl — Fri, 15 May 2009 10:58:06 -0000

"One point of contention that I do get into sometimes is the definition of the word "black". Some folks claim that it only applies to African Americans because their special history and culture. I claim that it applies to anyone from the diaspora if they so choose."

That's interesting, and my former housemate agreed with you. She was Haitian, raised in Palo Alto, and did not like to be referred to as "African American" because for her, it wasn't an accurate description. She liked "black."

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

adamnvillani — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:26:55 -0000

I do have to say that, having grown up in L.A., when I visited New York for the first time ten years ago and heard black people speaking Spanish, there was some cognitive dissonance there. I mean, I'm a baseball fan and so I'd seen plenty of Spanish-speaking blacks on TV, but I'd never seen one in person before. And I didn't grow up in lily-white suburb or anything; I grew up reasonably close to Central Long Beach and was in high school with Snoop Dogg.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Alesis — Fri, 15 May 2009 08:29:20 -0000

I'm a little surprised I seem to be the first to point out that while such interactions illuminate the beauty of diversity perhaps just as importantly it showcases just how virulent prejudice is in the global community.

Charting the complex interplay of our collective madness on issues of race can be amusing but counting the costs can certainly give one pause.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

J Segal — Fri, 15 May 2009 06:04:22 -0000

I grew up in Washington Heights, still live there. It was pretty confusing getting a handle on the vast diversity of where all my schoolmates came from and what that meant and all. But most bewildering was the animosity between the Puerto Ricans and the Dominicans, when a lot of the the time I couldn't even make out whether someone was talking about their home in "PR" or "DR".

Also, somewhat relatedly, it has always been amusing to me that the writer/director/former star of In The Heights, Lin-Manuel, is Puerto Rican, plays a Dominican bodega owner, and in real life the store at that location is run by Middle-Easterners.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

muzz al atesta — Thu, 14 May 2009 21:08:52 -0000

@ lilypad

a compliment i will cherish till the rest of my days

"him kinda cute, but in bed i'd crush him between me legs" dancehall off bayform road, Kingston 1993

and she wasn't lying either

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

socgrad — Thu, 14 May 2009 19:23:15 -0000

Late to the conversation, but here's my $0.02. The whole topic of black and brown is really interesting (and frankly confusing) to me because I grew up in a mid-sized Midwestern city that was pretty much 87% white, 10% black, and 3% everything else. Seriously, it wasn't until I moved to the East Coast for college that I realized that not all black people are born and bred black American. As far as distinctions among Latino people, my early understanding amounted to: "what?". Living in MA and later in NY has definitely opened my eyes to the variety of black and brown. Just something to keep in mind, there are a lot of people (particularly in the Midwest and outside of large metro areas) for whom black vs. Jamaican, Dominican vs. Hatian, Puerto Rican vs. black doesn't mean anything to them because they don't have direct experience with most of the groups.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Virgule82 — Thu, 14 May 2009 18:42:05 -0000

Hah, South Park can be incredibly intelligent at times

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Kaybee — Thu, 14 May 2009 18:22:36 -0000

total threadjack here, but you mention your son playing football. Are you concerned about injuries? I have read about all the concussions suffered by children playing football. Wasn't an issue with my son as he was way too small for f-ball, but it doesn't seem like it's worth it to chance injury.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

stanc — Thu, 14 May 2009 18:10:52 -0000

Back when I was a kid in Brooklyn(Flatbush/early 80's) it seemed everybody Hispanic was Puerto Rican, but that was probably just my ignorant ass being stupid. There were the West Indians(Jamaicans, Trinis, Bajans) that everybody thought was cool because they were foreign but not really since they spoke English. Now my people, the Haitians, folks (talking about the native born blacks in the neighborhood) thought were weird b/c they spoke a foreign language. The knock against Dominicans were that no matter how dark he was a Dominican wouldn't say that he was black. Because in the DR black meant Haitian.

Really don't remember any beefs b/n Haitian and Dominican kids in NYC. Probably b/c back then most Dominicans were way the fuck up in the Heights while we were in Flatbush and Canarsie. Any blood feud that you've got to take two trains to get to isn't worth having. I'm not even sure I knew Dominicans existed here. Thought the Dominican/Haitian beef was an old country thing. When we moved to Miami(yes, I am typical Haitian Am.) things were more tribal but my mom's favorite people on the block were the Dominicans. Shit why shouldn't they, they eat the same type of food and listen to similar music.

I remember one time when I was in law school my school was having some festival that I helped sneak in some students from another school. Found out halfway through the night that he was Dominican, so I told him that I was Haitian. We'd spent half the night hanging out and partying. So I something like "Hey were cousins" or something to that affect. This was in middle of the south and I hadn't seen another Islanders in years, so I thought it was cool that a Dominican and Haitian could be having a good time in Dixie. Dude gave me a weird look and a "this Haitian has crossed the line" vibe.

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

DaveinHackensack — Thu, 14 May 2009 17:51:03 -0000

Speaking of Somalis, did you see the recent South Park episode where Cartman, with visions of treasure chests and Caribbean lagoons in mind, goes to Somalia to become a pirate? He gets there and says something like, "Where are the pirates? All I see is a bunch of black people".

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Bruce — Thu, 14 May 2009 17:47:35 -0000

haha...ok...swede here...the kurdish anectode was fucking hilarious...can't come to think of anything off the top of my head though...

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

Virgule82 — Thu, 14 May 2009 17:44:09 -0000

This was in Norway, although I'm sure you could find similar stories elsewhere

Re: All My Spanish Bloggers Love Us

DaveinHackensack — Thu, 14 May 2009 17:44:04 -0000

I think your Brazilian friend oversimplified his country's racial tableau a little bit there. Brazilians have word for what used to be called mulattoes here, pardos -- people of mixed black-white ancestry -- but they also have people who are unambiguously white and black, respectively, plus the largest ethnic Japanese population outside of Japan, to boot. I'm not sure exactly where Brazilians draw the line between black and pardo though -- the waitress I mentioned looked like an average African American, which is to say she looked like she had at least some white ancestry, and yet she call herself black.