The Atlantic - Latest Comments in Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Heather — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:31:22 -0000

I'm white. After a couple of African-American missionaries came to my door, I almost said something like - hey, isn't it great, we have a black president? But the words didn't come out of my mouth. At first I was sad that I couldn't get them out because I longed for connection, and then I thought I was glad I didn't make a fool out of myself!

I get that this can be condescending, insulting, and such. But I also know that there's a part of me that hopes for more intimacy, more closeness, more just plain old human to human connection across racial lines because something just might be different. It's a vulnerable part of me. It's a part of me that doesn't want to offend, does not want to be rejected. It wants to be respectful, but it has a child's kind of eagerness, not the smarter more careful restraint of a wise adult aware of the implications of just rushing in.

While there are good reasons to be suspicious of that childlike eagerness, I want to be careful with myself to not wholeheartedly agree with the stupidity of white folks rushing in saying foolish things to their black friends or random black people they meet on the street. I think there's something genuine and deeply human in that desire for connection. I don't want to mock the essence of that.

Perhaps us white people need to talk amongst ourselves more about our feelings of hopefulness, about our eagerness, about the freedom that now feels possible for us, too, now that a bi-racial man is in power, to deconstruct the cost racism has been having on our lives, and to give our African-American friends some space. I would love to be a part of that kind of conversation.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

deedee — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:06:03 -0000

Even if you were to take this column at face value—rather the phenomenon itself, let's say—I just want to point out something.

I've lived in the small-town South my whole life, so I can speak to that; de facto segregation is going strong here. I'm white, I'm pretty young, and I voted for Obama. I've had black coworkers, mostly, and a handful of black friends I can go months without seeing.

Life is like that around here.

While these overtures from white people might be annoying, I'd like to think it's better than silence and tongue-biting. There is too much tension, even these days. I speak generally, of course, but also for myself. I have good intentions, but around black people I can't help but be aware that I'm around black people, that there's a very real chance I'm going to say something dumb.

I guess this is what I'm trying to say: I wish that everyone, blacks and whites and all, could talk more. That's the only way we'll begin to talk freely and understand each other. And this election makes for just another step.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

BG Rhule — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 01:12:41 -0000

I ususally like Mo Dowd--tho she isn't as spot on as Frank Rich--but this piece rebounded a generalization off the slam dunk election elation, and spread it like a tablespoon of frosting on an entire cake.

I had this nagging question: Don't white people interact with black people on any kind of a consistent basis, particularly in more progressive urban areas? Do we always have to have a deeply motivational reason to converse?

Yes and no.

I am always interacting with people of diverse backgrounds because that's what I've always done, that's where I live and work, and it would bore me to hear only one avenue of thought. Let's be honest, though because to ignore or deny the historical magnitude of Obama's election as the first black man in America to reach the level of the presidency is to pretend the rhinocerous in your living room is just a cocker spaniel.

Aware of the largess of this historically,whites--not the Palin rural hillbillies, but most of the electorate who voted for Obama or at least respected his accomplishments and lauded his character--whites, unable to feel what is is like to ascend from slavery to leader of the free world, could only query of blacks what they were experiencing so that they could at least feed off of it and experience a sense of pride in their country. This is real patriotism for them, not some jiveass flagpin, so to that extent, there was a shared excitement that was visceral in every CNN camera shot here and around the world. It was a huge moment and peole felt it like they have other major milestones.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Thomas R — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:17:59 -0000

Meh, will never know so it doesn't really matter now. I just don't feel apologetic about my vote though.

Yet I will admit to being pleased that, so far, most Obama supporters have been quite nice to me. The main exception to that is a few white liberals on a science fiction board I occasionally visit. Lots of thinly veiled "you must not black people or gays" innuendos. I've never encountered that here and I really appreciate it.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

gracchus — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:37:35 -0000

Scaremongering, perhaps, but in any event I'm sincere. Nonsense, however?

McCain from his public policy statements expressed enthusiasm continuing, or even extending an adventurist foreign policy are not. While I doubt he'd deliberately provoke a nuclear conflict, accidents do happen, and McCain has in past expressed a desire for a more aggressive posture toward both Russia and China, both nuclear-armed powers.

McCain's reaction to the (possibly manufactured)Georgian crisis seemd fairly belligerent. At a slightly lower level of existential threat, the man has joked about bombing Iran.

This is all added to an apparent ignorance of some of the hot zones of the world (he seems unaware of the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims for example), his self-admittedly hot temper and a fondness for taking risks, some foolish.

Frankly, this strikes me as a recipe for legitmate conern, even if it doesn't concern you. On foreign policy/use of military force, he's not a safe pair of hands. The foreign-policy realists in your own party pretty much agreed with me, judging from what I read before the election.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Thomas R — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:37:53 -0000

"What WRONG with you people? You have a death wish or something?" gracchus

No.

First: I don't think nuclear war was ever likely to happen no matter who is President. I think "you don't want him on the nuclear button" is just scaremongering nonsense.

Second: I'm Anti-Choice, pro-trade, and believe in a lower corporate tax.

Third: What the last eight years taught me is that undivided government is not a good thing. I'll admit 1994-2000 wasn't too bad really. If I'd had hope one House of Congress was going to go Republican I might have voted for Joe Schriner or something because McCain ran an offensive/horrible campaign.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Sybil — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:02:27 -0000

I can't believe you all are taking this column at face value--I though it was hysterically funny. She is describing all the boomer liberals who think they are so progressive when they have a conversation with their mailman.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

KT — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:23:20 -0000

Try to have a sense of humor, everyone. It will do you some good. Getting outraged about everything all the time has to be exhausting. This article employs a device known as "satire".

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

TH — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:31:12 -0000

Guys, this whole piece was tongue-in-cheek. She's making fun of white people for their awkwardness.

I for one, as a white person, have tried to avoid this. I walked into the office after voting with an Obama button on my overcoat, and one of the (black) security guards and I started talking. He said he'd figured I was for McCain (I work on Wall Street). Forget how we got there, but I basically said that I didn't talk politics when we shot the shit in the morning because I figured he was sick of white people talking to him about Obama. Biggest laugh I've ever heard.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

jrcjr — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:13:36 -0000

Dowd's weak sarcasm aside, this kind of projection works in all directions.

A few years ago, I had two separate Boston strangers tell me George Wallace had it right, as they tried to start conversations based on my southern accent and pale skin. Not exactly the image I wanted to project, so it didn't sit too well.

But shortly after that, a boston cabbie asked out of the blue if I was from Alabama, then proceeded to tear up telling me about marching on Selma. We had a great conversation sharing our views and thoughts on the country. At that time I figured I'd enjoy the positive associations when they come; they're too few, for all of us.

Odds are 9 out of 10 that the random black guy next to you supported Obama. pretty good odds if you just want to reach out and share your excitement about something. definitely better than chatting up some other random stranger. and even still better than assuming some out-of-town white boy is a closet racist.

As for me, I'm just glad we finally voted for the smart guy.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

gracchus — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:12:55 -0000

Baiskeli, yeah, the idea that anybody, let alone north of 40% of the American population, thought that McCain was a safe pair of hands for several thousand nuclear bombs is a pretty scary thought. If I lived in Utah or Idaho, I'd be tempted to stop my fellow Caucasians in the street and ask "What WRONG with you people? You have a death wish or something?" Strikes me as a valid question....

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Mr. Shrimp — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:48:41 -0000

My problem with Dowd is perfectly illustrated by this: I do think a lot of the time she is in on the joke, and attempting satire. But her execution is just poor. It isn't that funny, and you can't always tell where exactly she is coming from. I don't really think she's stupid. But, as a columnist in our "newspaper of record," she should be an excellent writer, top-tier, and she isn't.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Baiskeli — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:37:51 -0000

Wow!

I'd find those questions insulting. I think the unspoken assumption is that 'we' should be thankful to white people for voting for Obama. Ummm, no, hopefully white people voted for Obama out of self-interest as seeing having McCain/Palin in there would be pure stupidity and maybe we really should have a president with some intelligence, common sense and integrity.

I'm originally from Africa, and there is a parallel to this type of questions that I get here in the U.S. I call them 'know your place' questions. They seem very innocent but the unspoken assumption is that I am the saved while the questioner (almost always white) is the savior. Normally I get;

"Wow, you speak English so well" (talk about condescending, English is one of my 2 naitonal languages)

or my favorite

"Aren't you glad to be here, what with all the problems in Africa?" (Africa is a big place and not a country, just don't tell Palin that)

I used to answer such questions, nowadays, if I sense someone is being condescending, either unconsciously or not, I give a slightly sarcastic answer or a non-sequitur. Its gotten to the point when people ask me where I'm from I brace myself.

I had a complete stranger walk up to me and state "You must be happy Obama won". My response "I'm happy the non-psychotic candidate won. You must be very sad that McCain lost.". She was perplexed at my response, but why would she assume that solely because of the color of my skin she knows all thats going on in my head (So I turned the assumption around and assumed that since she was white she must have been in the tank for McCain, same stupid logic she was using). I was actually conflicted because I was rooting for John Edwards in the primary

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

jake — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:28:03 -0000

I don't think you guys understand how hard it is to resist this urge. I live in Brooklyn, every day on the way into work I pass an elderly black man or woman wearing one, two, three Obama buttons. Walked past an old gentleman today (over a week after the election!) wearing two of those great chinatown bootleg ones. I had to stop myself from shaking his hand and going on about how happy I am that he won and bragging on how long I was backing him. In my defense, black folks are the only ones still wearing the buttons and showing support, I'm just happy we won! Maybe a little pleased I was a part of it, too.

No lie, my friend was rocking a custom screened Obama shirt back during the primaries, only to start wearing it inside out over the summer 'cause he thought Obama was passe. Williamsburg types, you know?

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Teresa — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:42:47 -0000

I'm with Dpicker. Glad if Obama's election makes some Black folks feel extra happy... but more happy for myself as a smart, engaged, torture hating, constitution loving, liberal Democrat that Obama won. I'd feel just as happy if he was Asian, Native American, or even, gasp, white.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Asher — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:34:23 -0000

Yeah, gracchus... I mean, take the NYRB. Ronald Dworkin is a brilliant man. But every article he's ever written in there assumes that you take his point of view. It's all, "if you elect a Republican, he will appoint conservative judges and you just might lose your abortion rights, and you're reading this NYRB so we know you don't want that," or, "Louisville sent white kids to schools they didn't want to go to to help make things more racially balanced, and the Court said it was unconstitutional, and this is RIDICULOUS, how DARE they, they are betraying the spirit of Brown!" Like I don't need Ronald Dworkin to inform me that the Republicans are interested in overturning Roe. Or to tell me that liberals like affirmative action. It's a monstrous waste of intellectual resources. I would like Dworkin to explain why overturning Roe would be a bad thing, or why affirmative action's a good thing, since I think he's bright enough to at least make a decent argument, but he doesn't even try; you have to look it up in his books, and even those... like the last one of his I read starts more or less as follows: "I, Ronald Dworkin, think equality is the sovereign virtue in life and that no one has a right to the talents they're arbitrarily born with, or the fruits of the situation they're arbitrarily born into. Guess what that leads to? A Rube Goldberg insurance scheme for stupid people to insure them against being stupid!" And I'm sitting there like, that sounds fun - but don't you want to give an argument for why equality's the sovereign virtue? It is the title of your book after all.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

King Vidor — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:52:57 -0000

I had a black professor who enjoyed asking his white art students what they thought of Tina Turner (bear with me), or Martin Luther King or some other black person. his point, after inevitably stumping the subject because white people rarely get asked such things, was to impress upon us that the nation's issues belong to the NATION, and were thus shared among us. I was reminded of this by Howard Dean in the 2004 primaries when he said in a debate "I'm not just going to talk about race when I'm in front of Black audiences, I'm going to talk about race when I'm in front of White audiences." People should ask WHITE PEOPLE how it makes them feel too, because really this for everybody, and no SHIT Black folks are happy.

PS: love this blog, Mr. Coates!

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

gracchus — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:33:24 -0000

Asher, here's the thing, I don't actually disagree with you on the fact that the general level of public discourse in the U.S. is pretty low. The New Republic is a waste of space and the Nation is sloppily edited, and often sloppily written. The NYRB is somewhat better but taps the same people all the time, not all of whom are brilliant. Where we differ, I think, is that I'm more willing to forgive the hacks on my side their faults...

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Thomas R — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 05:39:02 -0000

Interesting PatricktheRogue. I wonder if she had anything like that in her satire?

"Well actually I voted for John McCain, I love cantankerous old war veterans regardless of race."

"Well actually I voted for Bob Barr, I want me an AK-47!"

"Well actually I voted for Cynthia McKinney, Revolution!"

"Well actually I voted for Alan Keyes and yes he was running."

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Asher — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:00:57 -0000

So I take back anything I ever said or suggested about you being a poor replacement for Yglesias. Whereas you have a sharp, nuanced understanding of what class-based affirmative action would look like, Matt seems to have lost his mind on this issue:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/11/classy_2.php#comment-819196

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Colin — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:28:36 -0000

The Tigger comment was great.

On a less silly note, these folks: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15531.html are celebrating going back to giving mediocre white people the best jobs without guilt. Seeing a lot of that around.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

PatricktheRogue — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:17:10 -0000

Strangely enough, as a military officer, most of the black men I know (other military officers) were for McCain, so I have only been able to have that conversation of all-around congrats with a few people. Most of the time I am standing up for our new President-elect, making the case that he won't completely fuck up foreign policy, that he is, in fact, a smart guy who understands the realities of power and personally recognizes the difference between his rhetoric (which is idealistic) and his real foreign policy situation (which is realistic).

Semper Fi,

PTR

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

matt — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:09:01 -0000

Gawker was on this:

http://gawker.com/5081100/maureen-dowd-seizes-opportunity-to-talk-to-black-people-for-the-first-time

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

Nat — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:32:32 -0000

I would hope the UPS guy et al. were considerate enough to refrain from asking if their questioners were feeling better now that someone competent was in the White House, but I would understand if they didn't.

Re: Again with the Frederick Douglass holograms!

adamnvillani — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:31:33 -0000

Hey, I'm a white dude and I have actual black coworkers to talk about this. I talked to two guys at work about it, but these are guys whom I talk about politics with, anyway.

My whole office is political, though. I'm in the planning department of a big city, and we had to have a memo from the higher-ups telling us to make sure we kept the Obama posters and buttons out of sight of the public counter.