The Atlantic - Latest Comments in A Rising Tide...

Re: A Rising Tide...

adin — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:22:02 -0000

By my calculation Obama has been in office five months. I'd like to hear what your specific "sell outs" have been? Post again in January 2011, and we may have something to discuss.

Sometimes I get the impression that a few people think Obama should be more than a president, that he should be a king, or a Dictator of The Good. Well, he's the President; not an imperial president, but one of the 'almost' co-equal branches of the government of the United States that most recent presidents have attempted to deconstruct.

It seems to me that some people fell into an Obama cult of personality, and those very people now realize he has to govern as a president, not a demi-god. And they are pissed.

A presidential campaign is many things: a test of the candidate's ability to paint a blueprint of his/her ideas, a test of will, of smarts, of responding to the unknowns, of physical and emotional weaknesses and strengths, etc. I think we know what his ideologically trajectory and governing style may be, but we don't know how all this will turn out. At least, I don't.

I think a dose of the reality of the modern American presidency should be taken by those who think Obama can cure every pimple on the ass of this country after five months or five years In office. It's not as if we have a pristine history that suddenly went bad when Bushmaster and his gang of dead-enders took over.

Re: A Rising Tide...

frankie d — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:01:42 -0000

hunnnh...

so you figured out that he is not only going to sell out americans, generally, but black folks specifically?

get used to it.

the next 3 plus years are going to be a repeat of this pattern.

obama "compromising" to get points on the board - any old legislation that will look good - to help his re-election, while he continutally sells out the basic principles he campaigned on.

it is simply disgusting.

Re: A Rising Tide...

Liza — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:58:42 -0000

You are absolutely right.

Tucson has major problems with providing decent jobs and is nationally recognized as both a low wage town and the call center capital of the US. We have Raytheon here and the University of Arizona, but something like 80% of the jobs are provided by small business.

Workforce development programs cannot work effectively without local economic development programs. We can't make the assumption that we can train people for the lower end of the labor market and they would have the resources to re-locate to where the jobs are. That happens at the high end of the labor market and we certainly feel that here in Tucson because we educate people at the UofA, but they move to Phoenix or other states to work.

I said upthread that President Obama's challenge is to turn us into visionaries who understand that the overhaul of the economy will be

a multi-year undertaking. And this connection between job creation and job training is something that he probably needs to incorporate into press conferences and speeches. I fully believe that he gets it.

Another thing about the workforce development/economic development enigma here in Tucson is that a small group of fat, corrupt bureaucrats literally have a stranglehold on the agencies that are involved. They pay themselves six figure salaries and accomplish absolutely nothing. My friend, the math guy, set up a blog in 2006 to expose some of this and it has attracted quite a bit of attention including the local newspaper. Right now the newspaper is all over this. The comment threads express a massive amount of public outrage, but so far nothing has happened to unseat any of the bureaucrats. But I suspect that there will eventually be some changes.

The major problems with economic development programs that I see are lack of oversignt and the failure to hold the bureaucrats accountable. These programs have immense potential and are critical if we are going to succeed in re-directing the economy into areas that will provide 21st century jobs.

Re: A Rising Tide...

pete from baltimore — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:29:59 -0000

MR Coates I went to your link and what i saw was that the unemployment rate for blacks did go down in the 1990's.

Obviousely they are extremly high now.And they were probably too high in the 1990's. But I think that the best thing MR Obama can do for all of the unemployed or underemployed [black,white or any race] is to get the economy back on track.This will not solve all of our problems .But I feel [and i think that President Obama feels the same] that we are still in serious danger of having the whole economy go to hell like in the 1930's.

Quite frankly ,if he can keep the unemployment rate below 10 percent ,i think he will be doing a good job.

My personal opinion is that MR Obama is taking the issue of unemployment very seriously .

Re: A Rising Tide...

pete from baltimore — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:27:28 -0000

MR Daveinhackensack

I would agree with you that the main reason black unemployment is rising is because of the manufacturing and construction industries being in bad shape right now.I would disagree with the suggestion that it has to do with immagrants doing jobs that Baltimore residents refuse to do. [please see my other comment above].

Baltimore has a small latino population .And they generally can not undercut the blacks and the whites on wages.Labor is really cheap in Baltimore ,hence our small hispanic population compared to better paying Washington DC [ immigrants go where the wages are highest].

Re: A Rising Tide...

pete from baltimore — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:16:48 -0000

MR DaveinHackensack

Could you please provide a link to the story about the cannery in Baltimore.I am not saying that it is not true, but the only crab cannerys that i know of are on the Eastern Shore.They are all a long way from Baltimore.You might have been misled by the term Baltimore "AREA".If the cannery is 50 to 100 miles away it does not help those without a car [a large percent of Baltimore in otherwords].

For the record I work in construction in Baltimore and I have many friends [white ,black and hispanic] who do as well.And all would jump at the chance to work for $10 an hour, including myself.The unemployment situation is the worst that i have seen in 40 years and wages have always been low in Baltimore. I have worked a lot of back breaking jobs for less than $10 an hour in Baltimore.

Beleive me ,if you go to any one of the temporary "day labor" offices you will see plenty of people lining up at 5 am to work for $6.55 an hour [minimum wage].I have stood in these lines myself recently.There are hardly any jobs going out ,so most of us went home empty handed.

The situation right now is bad for everyone. But manufacoring and construction are getting hit the hardest. I myself am white , but many people in construction and manufacuring are [or were] black.

By the way, most of the hispanics in my neighborhood are out of work as well.

Re: A Rising Tide...

socgrad — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:47:53 -0000

I've worked in workforce development and economic development in three different states and here's the dirty little secret of most workforce development programs...they're only as good as the local labor market. Retraining people for new jobs works, if there are jobs available in that city, region, (or in the case of inner-city workers, in that area of the city).

In the case of your friend in AZ, there obviously were alternative jobs in the area to absorb many of the retrained workers. But in many cities, esp. inner-cities, and rural areas the supply of low educated workers is much bigger than pool of low skill jobs (thanks to de-industrialization and the movement of service businesses to the suburbs and exurbs).

In order for workforce development programs to be effective (and not just provide false hope to desperate people) they have to be in tune with the actual job opportunities in that city or region and workforce development policies have to work towards increasing job opportunities for low to middle skilled workers in the cities and city areas where they actually live.

Re: A Rising Tide...

BlackWomanRising — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:23:43 -0000

"It's not that he lacks empathy; it's just that today's press conference, politician Obama suppressed community organizer Obama, and didn't show any of the perspective and special insight that a former community organizer would present on this issue."

eltoro,

That's just it...this is going to sound weird, but I wonder if "community organizer" Obama is really there sometimes. I'm truly not trying to be snarky, but I'm wondering if he didn't do the community organizing thing long enough because I just don't see how witnessing someone's plight up close doesn't have an effect on you. Obama's current views about Black unemployment don't reflect that that it had a huge impact. And yes, I've read Dreams from My Father and what he may have thought back in the 80s in Chicago seems to be different now.

Re: A Rising Tide...

eltoro — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:57:46 -0000

BlackWomanRising,

I don't think that Obama believes that lifting all boats is all that he needs to do to combat the persistent problem of higher relative unemployment among Blacks. Obama has spoken often about the importance of education in his life and in Michelle's life, and how programs like the GI Bill vastly increased the access that Americans had to higher education and vocational training, and how many Americans would be in a position to take advantage of this country's economic opportunities if they were provided real access to higher education and vocational training, and how government can play a critical role in providing that access. So he is certainly aware of structural factors (such as unequal access to education) leading to unemployment, and he has said that government has a role in alleviating those structural factors.

The problem with Obama is that he is extremely fearful of publicly commenting on specific and current issues dealing with racial inequities, especially in the light of the controversy surrounding the Rev Wright (which almost cost him the Democratic nominaton). So he will comment on such issues in the vaguest and most superficial of terms, especially in comparison to the more in-depth comments he will present on foreign policy issues. It's not that he lacks empathy; it's just that today's press conference, politician Obama suppressed community organizer Obama, and didn't show any of the perspective and special insight that a former community organizer would present on this issue.

Re: A Rising Tide...

sgwhiteinfla — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:54:20 -0000

I agree wholeheartedly but its almost as if people didn't notice that part of his answer or something.

Re: A Rising Tide...

eltoro — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:47:42 -0000

"By current liberal policies on energy, I'm referring not just to Cap & Trade, but liberals' resistance to increase domestic fossil fuel production and their resistance to expanding the use of nuclear power. The result of all of these policies is higher energy prices."

Dave,

Preventing an increase in domestic fossil fuel production isn't necessarily a liberal policy. Liberals often oppose measures such as increased off-shore drilling and opening up the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve not because they are inherently opposed to fossil fuel production, but because they feel the costs imposed on the American people by increased enviromental degradation outweighs any marginal benefit to the American people (although oil companies will benefit greatly). Since prices are dictated by both supply and demand, increasing domestic oil production won't necessarily lead to decreased domestic energy prices in either the short or long run; the effect of exponential increases in demand for fossil fuels in the developing world can more than offset the increase in supply providing by off-shore drilling and opening up ANWR.

Likewise, opposing the expansion of nuclear power isn't necessarily a liberal policy, since there is nothing inherently anti-liberal about using nuclear fission to produce energy. Liberals are merely concerned about the problem of storing nuclear reactor waste on the increased scale that widespread nuclear reactor use would entail. (You may have heard that nuclear waste is highly radioactive.) Deal with the waste problem properly, and liberals in this country will have no problem with expanding use of nuclear fission. (Of course, if you could develop a method of cold nuclear FUSION, then we could get rid of both fossil fuels and nuclear fission generators.)

Since there is nothing inherently liberal about opposing increased domestic production of fossil fuels and expanding the use of nuclear power, it is possible to gain the support of liberals on these issues. Deal with the legitimate environmental concerns raised by liberals in connection with these solutions, and propose as part of a package along with Cap & trade policies, and you will find liberal support for those ideas.

Re: A Rising Tide...

Liza — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:41:26 -0000

I wish at least one person would acknowledge the importance of workforce development programs.

A very good friend of mine was an engineer at a copper mine that shut down here in Arizona a few years ago. He watched 2,500 people lose their job that day and because of the emotional impact of that experience he became involved in workforce development.

He specialized in teaching math skills to those who never learned math for some reason or other. His results were quite phenomenal. Students were getting jobs, promotions, and pay increases and all of that was tracked over time. He went on to become the director of a small training institute here in Tucson, but the local "economic development council" took away his funding despite measurable success. He is now a researcher at some university in Kentucky.

My point is that what Obama said about workforce development programs is not insignificant.

Re: A Rising Tide...

BlackWomanRising — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:21:26 -0000

The problem is not the answer, but rather Obama's philosophy, which was reflected in his response to the reporter's question. I haven't watched the presser, but I read the transcript, and his answer is the same one he gave to Andre Showell a couple of months ago during the last prime time presser. I don't like the "lift all boats" philosophy either, and the only remedy is if Obama changes his way of thinking about the issue and to be honest, I don't think that's going to be happen. He's said this type of thing consistently so those of us African-Americans who still voted for him shouldn't act surprised. To do so, in my humble opinion, would be a little dishonest. Also, I think a lot of the disappointment comes from the fact that you would think that a Black man who's done the work that he has and seen the things that he's seen would be able to relate or at least understand the plight of the average Black man or woman and have some sort empathy that influences the decision-making process. For example, maybe if Obama had gone to an HBCU or had some kind of connection to those communities, he would see that cutting funding wasn't a good idea (Yeah, I'm personally pissed off about that, but that's a different post). Unfortunately, and I know this may seem harsh,that doesn't seem to be the case with Obama, and I think that a lot of us are just now starting to realize it, me included.

Re: A Rising Tide...

Liza — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:51:18 -0000

Obama is in the unenviable position of telling people who are hurting that, yes, we have some bandaids, but the real fix is long term. His challenge right now is to keep unemployment as low as possible, to keep as many people in their homes as possible, and to show progress on some campaign promises such as healthcare reform. But, most importantly, he has to convince us to be visionaries and to see that the overhaul of the economy, and yes we are talking overhaul, is a multi year and perhaps multi decade endeavor.

I do not see anything terribly wrong with his response to the question about black unemployment. It is absolutely true that black and Latino unemployment is consistently higher than white, and that blacks and Latinos are hit harder by recessions. And I certainly have no problem with programs that prepare people for employment. Workforce development is unquestionably part of the solution.

What Obama could have possibly said that he didn't would have been to make the link between job creation associated with his plans for green energy, the auto industry, infrastructure improvement, and so forth because these are the areas that will create the jobs that will replace those lost with the decimation of our manufacturing sector. It is the manufacturing sector that provided entry to middle class employment for those with only a high school education or less and it is the destruction of that sector over the last 15+ years (combination of bad trade agreements and an auto industry that doomed itself to self-destruct) that has hurt the most.

Re: A Rising Tide...

jhe — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:33:18 -0000

For what it's worth, I didn't hear the last part either. But the question was "Why not go for another round of stimulus because of horrific unemployment in the African-American community?" A shorter answer might have been that stimulus is too blunt an instrument. The program he cited I think was the kind of targeted approach he thinks can work. And yeah, while I'm far from an expert on African-American unemployment, if that's the whole plan, it's kind of lame.

Re: A Rising Tide...

adin — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:28:32 -0000

I think that Obama's answer is the the truthful response, and, probably, the best anyone could do in a Q&A setting. A more in depth response would have addressed the continuing, complex, seemingly intractable, structural poverty of about 13.3%-13.8% that has existed in the US since the late '50's when poverty was first quantified. Kenneth Galbraith defined structural poverty as "insular poverty." Here is how he defined it:

Insular poverty...refers to groups of people who are poor because the circumstances of their lives trap them in “social islands in which nearly everyone [is] poor, usually in a rural or urban environment that perpetuates its handicaps through poor schools, evil neighborhood influences, and bad preparation for life."

Ending "insular" poverty will require a tremendous changes in our cultural, educational, criminal justice systems. A press conference will not elicit the answers to these American tragedies.

Re: A Rising Tide...

DaveinHackensack — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:40:21 -0000

"So we should stop caring about carbon and global warming, stop worrying about developing alternative forms of energy, and just simply keep out unskilled immigrants? This is silly. Surely we can think of a better solution than that."

I realize that it's easier to caricature what I've written than to acknowledge the points I've made (particularly about how different liberal policy goals conflict with each other) and engage thoughtfully with the topic, but if you change your mind at some point and are interested in having a thoughtful conversation about this, let me know.

Re: A Rising Tide...

DaveinHackensack — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:35:45 -0000

Sgwhiteinfla,

"Yeah, sorry, not true."

1) By current liberal policies on energy, I'm referring not just to Cap & Trade, but liberals' resistance to increase domestic fossil fuel production and their resistance to expanding the use of nuclear power. The result of all of these policies is higher energy prices.

2) The effect of higher energy prices on energy-intensive industries isn't difficult to see, as the Utah versus Rhode Island example (which you seem to have ignored) shows. It should be clear to you intuitively why this is, but if not...

3) The CBO report you linked focuses on the cost to households of the proposed Cap & Trade legislation, noting that it will result in higher energy costs but that these will be offset with transfer payments. The CBO report does note in passing the point I've made here: that higher energy costs will hurt energy-intensive industries. From p. 8 of the report:

The magnitude of transitional costs would also be affected by international trade,
especially for goods or services that embody large amounts of GHG emissions. The cost of producing such goods in the United States would rise under the capand-trade program, thereby disadvantaging producers of those goods relative to foreign competitors that did not face a similarly stringent program for reducing emissions. Although large segments of the U.S. economy either do not face significant foreign competition (for example, the electricity and transportation sectors) or involve trade with countries that have a cap-and-trade program (the European Union, for example), some important manufacturing industries, such as steel, face competition from countries that do not face the costs of such a system.

Re: A Rising Tide...

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:06:06 -0000

Umm, do you think they'd pay people's living expenses if there were locals living nearby who wanted to do the work?

I dont often agree with Dave, but I think thats a thin assumption.

All kinds of reasons why paying unskilled Mexican laborers $10 an hour is preferable to paying locals nearby...a strong Union culture in Bmore that the Mexican labor is probably indifferent to, an easier ability to control them and short them on basic benefits and treatment that a local Baltimore resident would be more inclined to request or demand, etc.

Are these legit? Dunno, but plausible maybe.

Re: A Rising Tide...

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:02:32 -0000

Seems to me he's probably feeling a little overextended, and the question of "are you looking out for Black folks" probably gets under his skin in a way that other questions / accusations dont.

When Obama gets annoyed he can definitely be dismissive.

Still, I agree with TNC--even with problems on multiple fronts (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, N.Korea, the economy, the financial industry, the auto industry, the Dem party, Congress, etc.) he cant lose sight of the folks that got him elected--Black folks, progressives, Gay and Lesbian Americans, big city liberals.

I sympathize with the taxing demands of the job, but thats the job.

Re: A Rising Tide...

sgwhiteinfla — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:01:21 -0000

Just so we are all focused on the same set of data here is the question and answer in full and I will add emphasis to the parts that have me scratching my head at the criticism.

QUESTION: I'm fine.

Back on the economy. Mr. President, people are criticizing this (inaudible) recovery plan. Specifically there are reports in The Washington Post that say that the African-American unemployment rate will go to 20 percent by the end of this year.

And then you had your chairman of Economic Advisers say the target intervention may come next year, if nothing changes.

Why not target intervention now to stop the bloodletting in the black unemployment rate?

MR. OBAMA: Well, look, the -- first of all, we know that the African-American unemployment rate, the Latino unemployment rate are consistently higher than the national average. And so, you know, if the economy as a whole is doing poorly, then you know that the African-American community's going to be doing poorly, and they're going to be hit even harder.

And the best thing that I can do for the African-American community or the Latino community or the Asian community, whatever community, is to get the economy as a whole moving. If I don't -- hold on, hold on one second. Let me answer the question.

If I don't do that, then I'm not going to be able to help anybody. So that's priority number one.

It is true that in certain inner-city communities, the unemployment rate is -- was already sky high even before this recession. The ladders available for people to enter into the job market are even worse.

And so we are interested in looking at proven programs that help people on a pathway to jobs.

There's a reason why, right before Father's Day, I went to a program here, locally in Washington, called Europe, which has a proven track record of taking young, mostly minority people, some of whom have graduated from high school, some, maybe, who have just gotten their GED, and train them on computers and provide them other technical skills but also train them on how to carry themselves in an office, how to write an e-mail, some of the -- the social skills that will allow them to be more employable.

They've got a terrific placement rate after this one-year program. If there are ways that we can potentially duplicate some of those programs, then we're going to do so.

So, part of what we want to do is to find tools that will give people more opportunity. But the most important thing I can do is to lift the economy overall, and that's what my strategy is focused on.

Again to me this came off as an answer that focused on macro and micro concerns. Overall if the economy doesn't come back it won't matter what color you are, we are all screwed. But aside from that he is also talking about finding programs that can be mirrored around the country and help those inner city areas (minorities) that have high unemployment statistics even during the "good times".

Somebody please help me on this, what am I missing specifically that he could or should have said?

Re: A Rising Tide...

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:58:23 -0000

If all of the gains were among Black women, dwhite, didnt that only further exacerbate some of the large-scale pressures fracturing the Black family? How can a Black community rise in education and wealth and drop in imprisonment and mortality when the men are being excluded from the kind of gains you proudly (and rightfully) cite?

Re: A Rising Tide...

Juba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:55:46 -0000

One reason I never bought into the "Clinton Loves The Bruhs" hype.

He threw us under the bus by letting law enforcement run wild on us (didnt drug offense arrests and harrassment of Black males increase during his tenure?) He threw us under the bus with his little weak Sistah Souljah moment. And he threw Rwanda and Somalia under the bus.

So whether he knew it or not, he had primed some of us nicely to lash out at him when he pulled his old tricks in SC last year.

Re: A Rising Tide...

Lemmy Caution — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:41:11 -0000

It seems like, to me, you are doing everything you can to avoid addressing the difficult contradiction which DaveinHackensack has described: the tension between a pro-immigration stance and a pro-labor one.

Cesar Chavez was strongly opposed to both expanded legal and illegal immigration. He identified new immigrants as a likely source of scab labor. At one point, his union, the UFW, even patrolled the US-Mexico border in a manner comparable to that of the present-day Minutemen. For a while, Chavez and the UFW would report undocumented workers to the INS for deportation. (I've always found it bizarre how campus romantic-leftists would lionize Chavez while having no idea about his immigration stance: Chavez is a labor hero first and foremost, but has been re-invented into an ethnic one.)

There are a lot of ways to handle this issue. I, for one, am more pro-immigration than pro-native-labor, and that stance has a lot to do with my own family origins, and lack of particular loyalty to a national working class over an international one than anything else. But it is naive - pure whistling-in-the-dark - to think that the default progressive slate on this issue isn't fraught with contradiction. The American left is still confused and backward when it comes to understanding class and labor issues, and it shows.

Re: A Rising Tide...

socgrad — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:14:51 -0000

I hate to be a spoil sport, but the unemployment rate for black people is close to twice as high as that for white people at every education level. In 2008 the unemployment rate for people without a HS degree was 8.2 for white people and 14.5 for black people. At the BA or higher level the rate is 2.4 for white people and 4.0 for black people. Mind you, this is for black people in general, not black men specifically and this unemployment discreprancy has held steady for a few decades now.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.... From the BLS site's CPS data.

This is what's wrong with the idea of a rising tide lifting all boats. Even when the tide rises, it lifts some boats more than others. Although black workers will benefit from a general improvement in the economy, unless the reasons for that *structural* disparity in employment are adressed *specifically*, black workers (especially black men) will find themselves as relatively disadvantaged in the economic recovery as they have been in the economic meltdown and before.

Anna Perez raised a number of good possible reasons for the unemployment disparity (particularly racism, incarceration, and low education). I would add two others, that in addition to low education, could be used as a way of addressing unemployment for both black men in inner cities and white men in rural areas (and thereby make the policies more palatable to the public). Namely, poor / inadequate networks for finding employment and, frankly, the dearth of actual employment opportunities in most of these communities. You can train and educate people all day long, but if the jobs aren't there (in their actual communities), the training is for nought.