The Atlantic - Latest Comments in A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Francesco Sinibaldi — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:29:45 -0000

The sunshine here.

Here is

the sunshine,

with delicate

rays and the

sound of a

light breeze:

and this is

my care, when

everything

shines and the

night fades

away.

Francesco Sinibaldi

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

North — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:35:34 -0000

I think the evidence I have actually points to the opposite conclusion - that down deep, Obama supports same-sex marriage, but claims he doesn't in order to win. The evidence?

1. In a 1996 gay newspaper questionnaire (when Obama was running for state Senate) he said he supported full marriage equality. (cite)

2. The man is smart - plenty smart enough to know that if you think queer people should be equal before the law, you need to oppose "separate but equal" institutions. We know he's smart and empathetic because all his other positions are smart and empathetic.

3. The man is also ruthless. He's willing to triangulate, and he's not going to let his career go down because he took an inconvenient position. He has plenty of incentive to back civil unions instead of marriage.

To me, this all suggests that Obama changed his position on marriage for political reasons. And much as I like Obama in general, I also think that the flap about queer issues demonstrates that they're not a priority for him. Which is fine - I had some hopes otherwise, but as long as he'll pay attention to political incentives, I'm perfectly happy to get to work manufacturing political incentives.

Side note: yeah, wealthy white gay men are conservative. What do you expect? Ta-Nehisi has pointed out for years that being oppressed in one way doesn't make a group of people nobler or smarter or more empathetic in other ways.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

adamnvillani — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:50:30 -0000

The thing is that fixing the economy, negotiating with foreign leaders, trying not to get into wars in Iran and North Korea, etc. is all pretty difficult. Yeah, it takes a lot of time to figure out exactly how to fix health care even if it is your top priority.

But you know what wouldn't be difficult if the political will were there? Repealing DADT. He could do the work on that while waiting to get a phone call returned if he really wanted to.

You know what else would be a quick, easy assignment? Telling a staffer to come up with something he could say that would at least show some support for states making their own choices on gay marriage. Actively supporting it on a federal level would be politically difficult in a way that allowing gays in the military wouldn't be, but he could at least give people some words of encouragement.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Juba — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:45:20 -0000

Thats actually what drives me crazy about the Black church, it offends my sense of justice. These closeted men are busting their butts (pause) for your institution and you reward them by excoriating them from the pulpit.

Its that kind of cognitive dissonance that keeps so many in the closet.

And in the closet only leads to high HIV rates in the community from men leading double lives and having irresponsible / self-loathing behavior like heavy drinking and drug use and promiscuity.

If the church is really about promoting justice and ministering to suffering, it would be far healthier and loving to marry their gays than attack them.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Juba — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:38:42 -0000

Also I wouldnt call that stimulus package, stem cell reversal, Labor cabinet pick, or handling of foreign policy tepid.

But yes, progressives are fighting for face time with centrists.

They probably dont like that, and shouldnt, but it is what it is.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

gillian — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:15:54 -0000

Ta-Nehisi's last sentence hits the nail on the head. This is on the Pres. Time to take some personal responsibility. No matter how many pollsters, pr people and various hacks (redundant, I know) are pulling him in different directions bc of this or that constituency, at the end of the day it is he that has to take responsibility for what his administration says and does. And we need to not let the Pres wiggle out of responsibility by us placing blame on other parties.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Rillion — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:14:28 -0000

I already closed my wallet to Obama and OFA/DNC over a month ago. When Obama pretty much ignored the Prop 8 ruling when speaking at a fundraiser in Los Angeles the day after it was upheld I decided right then that I was going to donate only to groups working for gay rights. I then unsubscribed to the OFA email list and also returned the OFA health care effort fundraising letter and let them know they will not get any of my money until after DOMA and DADT are repealed. I've already seen from 6 years of Republicans controlling Congress that they don't have the votes to take away any gay rights gains, so until the Democrats prove that they are actually going to deliver on gay equality their do nothing stance is effectively equal to the Republicans, although the Dem's pretend to care.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Ta-Nehisi Coates — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:10:37 -0000

OK, so what would you have me do. I pointed out the problem with the story. I have repeatedly called out this line of reasoning and attacked people (many of them my respected colleagues) for invoking it. I'm not going to rip people's heads off. It's hard job. People fuck up--and they should get called on it when they do. But I can't see what an extra helping of venom accomplishes

As for Rosin, I loved her piece on kids who cross-dress. Read it, and think about what it takes to sit with families like that, and get at what's going through their heads.

But really, she doesn't need me to defend her. We live in an internet age. Google her name. Read some of her work. And then form your own opinion. Moreover, if you don't think I'm going hard enough, get a blog. Go even harder. Your first link will be from me.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Mr. Shrimp — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:14:17 -0000

I'm with brucds on this. TNC, I'm sure you know Ms. Rosin or at least her work better than I do, but this shows virtually no reporting chops at all. Just from reading your blog and following a few links I know this is just an off-the-cuff assumption masquerading as journalism.

My only other experience with Ms. Rosin's work is her article on motherhood and breastfeeding in a recent Atlantic, and it was one of the worst articles I have ever read (especially when compared to an article on the same subject published not long before by Jill Lepore in the New Yorker). So, this claim about black churches, homophobia, and Obama seems of a piece with her other work to me.

I recognize this isn't a thread about Ms. Rosin. But this bugs me: it's irresponsible journalism. It does a lot of damage to continue the assumption that blacks and black churches are fighting against gay rights.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

azinna — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:10:06 -0000

Nice work, TNC. Guess if Sammy wanted to argue for Obama's maneuvering on gay/civil rights issues, she or he would have to articulate something...rather than misrepresent the discussions on your blog.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Seekonk — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:06:57 -0000

So if gay rights have to wait for implementation of a broader agenda, what's on that priority agenda? If health care is an example, Obama's advocacy has been anything but fierce. More like jello.

I think that so far, O's contribution has been in establishing an environment of civility and respect, and in not having done some of the horrendous things that we know that McCain-Palin would have done.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Persia — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:58:16 -0000

I was driving to work this morning and passed by a guy in our town who's a wonderful, sweet, lifelong bachelor. And he's older than my mom, and no one ever even asks the question. He might not be gay, don't get me wrong; he might be asexual or things just never worked out for him. But I think there's a lot of denial going on. (I'm in the Northeast in a majority white community.)

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Persia — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:43:37 -0000

Eduardo answers this downthread. Also remember that politically active gays generally are high-income and that the Dems finally have a financial advantage over the Republicans-- for the moment.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Josh Jasper — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:42:29 -0000

When he compares you to pedophiles in a legal brief defending bigotry, you can talk.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Josh Jasper — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:37:57 -0000

I'd like to ask why ignore lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered people? Do you think gay men are the only political queers?

Regardless, I was marching against the Iraq invasion back before Obama was a blip on the political horizon, and I have NOTHING to prove to you. In fact, I suspect that you're probably a conservative troll trying to get a rise out of liberals.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Persia — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:37:34 -0000

DADT should be one of the top items on Obama's agenda, if that's your opinion. We have two wars and unrest in Iran, and we're firing qualified soldiers and translators on the basis of a policy that the majority of Americans-- in and out of the military-- oppose.

As Ta-Nehisi has already smacked you down on the rest of it, I'll just leave it at that.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

azinna — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:32:59 -0000

Beautifully said. That DOMA brief was downright shameful on the part of the Obama administration.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Persia — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:29:48 -0000

It's a good comment, though. Moar leadership!

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

harryt — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:28:14 -0000

SWEET TEA is indeed deeply funny.

I laughed out loud when I read one narrator (born 1945) saying: "I'm from the generation where men were men, women were women, and sissies were women."

What I really like about the book though, is how Johnson manages to keep complexity alive. He acknowledges the homophobia of the south and of some black churches, but he also stresses the sense of community and belonging (and sometimes the sex!) that his narrators have found with southern black churches. He doesn't ignore or downplay the pain of southern racism / homophobia in his narrators' lives, but he also doesn't let the book slip into "Oh, the south is just ALWAYS, ALL THE TIME TERRIBLE for black people" or "Oh, black churches are just ALWAYS, ALL THE TIME TERRIBLE for gay black men."

It's sad how rare the ability to keep that kind of complex, nuanced thinking is . . . even in a lot of academic scholarship.

And as for whether the same sort of thing happens in white churches? I'd bet money that it does.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Persia — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:27:27 -0000

This. I'm seriously unhappy about DADT and DOMA (among other things), but. Dude. It's June.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Mattison — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:20:23 -0000

Real change and equality are coming. It will not happen with the stroke of President Obama's pen, but will take a multi-front effort:

1) Small victories, such as "some" federal benefits extended to same-sex couples

2) State-by-state Gay Marriage such as in Massachussetts, Vermont, New Hampshire (keep working in your state)

3) Challenges to anti-gay amendments and DOMA and DADT that make their way to the Supreme Court

4) A split Supreme Court as we have now will pass judgement on a case as historical as Brown v. Board of Education that will lead to...

5) Legislation in Congress establishing equal protections for the LGBT community

In this manner, our rights will be solidified as working through our Constitutional system, not as being dictated down to the People by a "liberal" President.

Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks... they had patience and the spirit of non-violence (non-confrontational) that validated the simple statement worn by picketers in Birmingham -- "I am a man."

With this same commitment and perseverance, we will also be able to stand and say "I am a human." and deserve equal rights.

Patience and perseverance. Our time will come. Freedom will ring.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Eduardo — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:13:27 -0000

That looks like a moving but probably funny as hell book.

"In other words, it's a mixed bag: southern black churches are officially homophobic institutions which nonetheless count many gay men in their memberships and provide some kinds of quiet acceptance for them, while also depending on their talents and hard work (as choir members, choir directors, preachers, ushers, etc.) to keep the institution running."

I am curious about that because I think this happen in some White churches, too? A friend of my cousin in Atlanta goes to a Southern White Baptist church. He is the choir director. He is very, very involved in the Church. And man is he gay! The kind that help my cousin and my aunt to shop for clothes...

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

deva — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:52:38 -0000

The point is: it's not Obama's black church. Trinity is a leader on LGBT rights as a part of a comprehensive progressive theology. It's a UCC Church. The UCCers have performed gay marriages since the 90s. Whatever Obama might have "picked up" there regarding gay rights put him ahead of the moral curve not behind it.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

harryt — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:47:31 -0000

I'm only halfway through reading it right now, but E. Patrick Johnson's book SWEET TEA: BLACK GAY MEN OF THE SOUTH, AN ORAL HISTORY (UNC Press, 2008) is a must-read for anyone who wants to continue to spew this "black people are more homophobic / the black church is super homophobic" stuff without thinking.

Johnson's book is, as its title suggests, a collection of oral history interviews with southern black gay men. And the book's third chapter, "Church Sissies: Gayness and the Black Church," gets knee-deep in the contradictions and surprises of southern black gay men's experiences with organized religion.

(And . . . as many posters here have pointed out, and as Johnson is conscious of throughout his book, the phrase "The Black Church" is problematic and seems to imply that there's only ONE church that ALL black people attend.)

The short version of the story that emerges from SWEET TEA is this: yes, black churches often preach homophobic rhetoric and take official positions that are homophobic. But, as Johnson's interview subjects make clear again and again, black churches are also havens for southern black gay men. For example, the theatricality and musicality of the choir are often a way for southern black gay men with a performative bent to express themselves, and many black gay men find a sense of affirming community within their churches. Hell, some narrators in the book even talk about using the church as a place to meet other gay men!

In other words, it's a mixed bag: southern black churches are officially homophobic institutions which nonetheless count many gay men in their memberships and provide some kinds of quiet acceptance for them, while also depending on their talents and hard work (as choir members, choir directors, preachers, ushers, etc.) to keep the institution running. Johnson (and his many narrators) articulate this far better than I have here. It's a great book, a really important book, and this kind of easy, stupid "black people are more homophobic than anyone else" sort of stuff makes hearing what Johnson's narrators say all the more important.

Oh, and thanks Ta-Nehisi. I've been loving your blog for many, many months now. Long time reader, first time poster, I guess.

Re: A Little Tired Of Saying This But...

Eduardo — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:30:17 -0000

Amen.